105mm M2-A1 Howitzer

[R Cubed]

Hi all, I am not sure if this is the correct place to put this but here it is.
I want to start building up a stock of ammunition boxes for my 105 M2-A1, the ones I am interested in are the crates which hold 2 complete rounds side by side. Over here in the UK I have had great problems even seeing one so I am hoping some of you guys can suggest any alternative types of crates and possibly post pictures of the different types. Or even supply me with the dimensions of them. Oh I thought I would post a pic just after painting of my new toy !!!!!!!!!!!!

Front side after paintR.jpg

Thanks Rich

[Cat Man]

Rich,

Here are two illustrations of 105 Artillary ammunition box markings. The one is typical and would be the same for 105 rounds (2 per box).

I think I have some crates that we can measure if you want to try and build some.






Cat Man

[R Cubed]

Wow yes please Cat Man
The original idea was to get a crate and copy it, to be able to stack lots of them by my Howitzer and in my 352 for displays at shows.
The pictures you have posted are the crates I have been trying to find, they look as though they are out of a manual, if so can you tell me which book you have used.
If you can take close up pictures of all the 6 sides of the crates and possibly do some drawings with the measurements for each of the 6 sides also a couple of pics of the insides to show bracing and shell supports so I can see all the bits of wood, rope, hinges and catches ect. That would be great, even better would you sell a crate ? are yours original ?

If you could do this I would be very grateful

Thanks

Richard

[Cat Man]

Richard,

Here are the details for the standard wood ammo crate for two artillary rounds. There are several standard sizes for several different munitions. I checked my box collection and this one is for 4.2 mortor but size is the same for 105MM Rounds. (No 105MM crates right now???)

Overall dimensions are 32" Long X 11 1/2" Wide X 7" High
Top and sides are 3/4" pine
Ends are 1" pine
Rope handles are 5/8" Diam
Ends are nailed thru handles and clinched on the inside.

This box would be the same for 105MM rounds with packing to fit on the inside.

The M84 HE M-1 round is 31.07" Long, 4.134" Diam and weights 42.07 Lbs.

















Not too difficult to manufacture. You have the hard part to get. Over here we have crates but no guns. You have guns but no crates!

Let us know how the project turns out.

Cheers

Cat Man

[Cat Man]

Opp's, check my math!!!

Make that 32 Inches long on the INSIDE of the crate for the 105MM round!

32" Inside + 1 inch + 1 Inch on each end x 2 ends = 36" overall lenght.

Sorry for the mix up.

"Measure twice and cut once"!!

Cat Man

[Bill_Wolf]

Cat Man,

Thanks again for spreading around your knowledge.

I have a couple of dozen Vietnam era (1968) 4.2 inch mortar crates for M329A1 ordnance.

So I could replace the nylon rope with hemp rope and restencil and I would be farby but in business.

Thanks again,

Bill

[R Cubed]

Great stuff, thanks for the pics and measurements. Are the metal hinges and catch original for a 105 crate ?
If you did come across a couple of crates what would you expect the cost of them to be ?
Would still be interested in a couple if the price was right.

[Cat Man]

Hi R,

The hinges are pretty standard on lots of wooden crates like these. Everything from fuze boxes to Grenades to Mortar ammo boxes.

There is another style box for ammo the size of the 105MM that is not hinged and the end board comes off to open the box. This style is shown in the early part of this thread. There is a rod that goes the lenght of the box and has a large wing nut on the end. 90 MM ammo came that way too.

Wooden ammo crates here in the states go for anywhere from $5 to $20 a box depending on if you are at a garage sale or military show.

Cat Man

[R Cubed]

Oh ok, so there are different types of box. the first ones you posted at the top of this thread have a diamond shaped metal plate with a hole in it on the end panels, this would be for the rod to poke through then ? do the ends of the crates with the rope handles on have a wood batten round the inside edge to stop the end panel moving about when the rod and wing nuts are tight ?

Could you possibly get some pics of the insides of one of these crates also a pic of the wing nuts as well please.

If you can find one of those ammo boxes I would love to have one.

Thanks again for all the hard work you are doing.

[kpu121265]

Dear R Cubed, whilst i am not exactly around the corner, i am at least in the UK, near Leeds. I'm pretty sure i have a couple of original war time dated crates for this ammo, and a complete round in the collection. Before you fall off your chair, they are not for sale - but you are very welcome to measure, stroke, copy, borrow etc them. I go to France a fair bit through Portsmouth if that helps at all transport wise.
If you were thinking of making these in quantity, i would be interested in some. I have 100+ original crates, but am becoming increasingly nervous about showing them as they become increasignly valuable (and therefore desirable) - which either a sad reflection on me, or some of the 'people'.
If i can help, feel free to pm me, or mail me ken.pugh(at)pks-ltd.co.uk
Regards
Ken

[kpu121265]

In fact, i'm pretty sure i have a couple of post war dated ones as well. If i do, and i can find them, you are welcome to them Rich, as i 'only' collect WW2 dated crates.....
Ken

[R Cubed]

In fact, i'm pretty sure i have a couple of post war dated ones as well. If i do, and i can find them, you are welcome to them Rich, as i 'only' collect WW2 dated crates.....
Ken

I have PM ed you.

[kpu121265]

Got it - thanks.
Even better news now i am distracted by this, is that i am pretty sure that i have as many as 10 WW2 dated brass cartridge cases for these, that i picked up in Normandy a few years ago, if you wanted to make a few 'real' display rounds.
I will hunt them out.
Regards
Ken

[R Cubed]

Besides the general bits and bobs which would go with the howitzer such as shells and cases ect. How would a barrel be changed in the field what would be used or is this something that would have to be carried out in a proper workshop, I have heard that this is what the set no7 was for can anyone confirm this ?

[R Cubed]

I have managed to borrow a 105 crate dated "loaded 8-43" but I am confused over how the crates would have been opened ?
The crate I have is the type with the diamond metal plates nailed to the ends by the rope handles with holes for the rod and wing nut, now from what I have read the ends are surpose to come off as the top of the crate is nailed and wire straps in three places, but the ends are also nailed ?

So when the shells are put in to the crates in production were the ends and tops all nailed and the rod and wing nut was for extra security to hold the handles to the crate, if so was it up to the gun crew to smash the crate to get to the shells or was there a correct method to remove the shells, I have seen war time pics of lots of crates with the ends missing but how would you do this if they were all nailed up !!

[kpu121265]

Rich, the plot thickens.
As soon as i have unpacked i will post some pictures of the 105mm crate and tubes i picked up in Normandy last week.
There must be different 'types' of rounds for the 105mm gun (i don't mean HE, smoke AP etc). The crate i picked up is rectangular with a square base and top if that makes any sense. The same sort of shape as the land mine crates i have. On this one, clearly marked for two complete HE rounds with fuses, 105mm, loaded 3-44 has a pair of internal dividers in it. the carboard 105mm tubes i picked up fit in perfectly (which are also marked for 105mm), but for there were only two rounds in it, i can only guess that it had a pair of cartridges in tubes and a pair of shells cw fuses in tubes within the crate (ie. four tubes in total). This crate has all four sides and the based nailed on, and the top clearly was held on with a rod passining through the top and bottom. You know from the round and crate i lent you that that round, only just fits in that crate so this 'new' crate must have been for rounds packed with the cardboard tubes. Maybe there were 'ready' 105mm rounds or something?
Anyway, thanks to an admin cock up on my part, i need to drop the cartridge cases off for you that i have so if you want to borrow this crate and the tubes when i've posted the pictures, just let me know.
Regards
Ken

[Cat Man]

I should have mentioned when I posted the photo's of the hinged ammo crates that there are also the type with the loose end that is opened with a wing nut on the end as you describe. I think these can damage the round since the gun crew has to "pour" the rounds out the end of the box.

Shipping space was criticle during the war (It always is) and there was a great effort starting in about 1942 to find ways of reducing packing sizes. Uniforms were squeezed into bales, ammo crate sizes were changed, replacement half tracks were rolled into a triangle shape for shipping. There was an article in popular science back in the day that showed the many changes.





Different crate sizes and types would not be "Right or Wrong" just wartime packing.

Cat Man

[kpu121265]

First images of the new find... This crate is 2 feet long by 1 foot square...
The originals are at http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/showgal ... p?cat=2495 if that is any easier for zooming in for detail.

[kpu121265]

Having done some research now i am completely distracted by WW2 105mm ammunition crates, it seems that they started using the 'long' box holding two rounds side by side as in the pictures of crates earlier in this thread, then went to the clover leaf style crate holding three complete rounds (i have two of these for 75mm rounds marked for Omaha Beach Ord Depot) but they were heavy, then went on to the two round 'short' box which held two cartridges in cardboard tubes, and two shells in cardboard tubes (as pictured in the above images). This proved awkward with regards to traceability as i understand it, and required that the rounds were 'assembled' prior to firing, so the 'long' box was reverted to. All that in the space of 6 years.....
Regards
Ken (i need to get out more).
http://www.usarmymodels.com/ARTICLES/10 ... kings.html has some very useful information on the subject including sample markings.

[R Cubed]

Hi all, I have managed to borrow a 1943 dated 105mm shell crate to copy, but I am a little stumped on how the rope handles are fixed to the ends, I know the ends disappear into the 1" thick end up right bits which have a grove in them to accept the end of rope but how it the end of the rope secured in these pieces of wood, some pics would be great, I cant disassemble the crate I have as it is not mine !!!!

Please help